“Netanyahu is the main criminal responsible for encouraging Hamas.”

Did the Israelis wake up from their dream with the massacre committed by Hamas on October 7?

Yes, but I don’t know what reality we woke up to. The State of Israel was created to prevent mass harm against Jews at any cost, be it pogroms or another Holocaust. Suddenly we wake up to one of the worst events in Jewish history. So what we took for granted has collapsed. What we did not understand is that there are reasons behind this and Gaza will not disappear. Or that the Palestinian issue, whose evaporation we celebrated for a decade, has returned to the table again. None of this is yet clear to the Israelis.

Why were all previous warnings about the attack ignored?

We will have to wait for a commission of inquiry to clarify who said what to whom and why it was not heard. The other part of the answer is that, as with all surprises of history, the state and political society are immersed in their own perception of reality, which prevents them from considering other alternatives. Unfortunately, your enemy is not blinded by this same reality and ends up surprising you.

Most Israelis did not associate October 7 with the daily barbarity of the occupation. It is as if this is an ordinary country that was suddenly attacked by a gang of terrorists.

It’s worse than that. They have been brainwashed by the Israelis for almost a generation. They have been told that they can manage the crisis rather than solve it, and live enormous lives without paying for the crimes their country is committing so they can live comfortably. These Israelis do not know where Gaza and the West Bank are located today. They have never known a Palestinian or the reality in which they live. Netanyahu brainwashed us with the help of stupid Donald Trump into believing that this problem no longer exists.

The Israeli government says it wants to end Hamas and free the hostages, but it is destroying Gaza and its residents. What to look for with this policy?

Very easy. War has no plan or goals, and therefore we will never achieve them. We are in a purely revenge phase and there is no plan to end it. When it’s all over, there will be great disappointment in Israel.

Much of the world is horrified that more than 8,000 children have been beaten in Gaza. How could there be no reaction in Israeli society?

First I will tell you my personal position. Hamas’ crimes are heinous. No context, no explanation, no reason. They are crimes against humanity. Barbarians But none of these crimes justify the mass killing of so many innocent people in Gaza. One evil does not justify another. I don’t compare them, but I also don’t accept that one is a cause of the other. Very few Israelis are willing to accept this responsibility, because most Palestinians consider them terrorists, just as most Palestinians consider all Israelis soldiers and settlers. The Israelis do not know that we want peace because we imposed a policy of separation. For us, there are no human beings in Gaza, only suicide bombers and terrorists. It is the tragedy of this situation.

Netanyahu’s government is considering deportation to Egypt, but it will not be easy. How will the people of Gaza survive in a devastated place?

Large-scale reconstruction is necessary, but international money will not come if Israel does not accept a comprehensive agreement providing for the establishment of a Palestinian state. If this does not happen, the poverty, misery and disease in Gaza will be Israel’s sole responsibility, and it will end up paying the price. This is the dilemma.

I have led some of the most important institutions in Israel and the Jewish world, but over the years I have become very critical. What happened along the way?

I entered politics after the beginning of the first war in Lebanon (1982-2000), committed to two issues: ending the occupation and achieving the separation of church and state. It’s been 40 years and I still want the same thing, peace, justice and equality for all. I have not changed, it is Israel that has changed. It is more radical, more religious, more fundamentalist, more nationalistic, and many other things…

Is there a crucial moment to explain this drift?

It’s a long story, but the local dynamic has a lot to do with what happened in 1967, when we occupied the Palestinian territories, which for Christian Jews represents the heart of biblical Israel. At the same time, we are part of the zeitgeist in which many classical nation-states are disintegrating into ethnic states, like Hungary for the Hungarians, white supremacist America, an alternative Germany for Germany, and the Jewish state of Israel. It’s the same dynamic.

What do you think will happen to Netanyahu when the war ends?

It will depend on whether it ends in two months or two years. The countdown will begin when Benny Gantz leaves the unity government. This will be a signal that the war is over. First there will be an investigation committee to clarify everything that got us there, and then there will be new elections.

She has strongly criticized Netanyahu, but occupation or settlements are state policies that have been in place for decades. Is it possible to reverse it?

The entire Zionist establishment is responsible for the terrible settlement project. They started with Rabin and Peres of the Labor Party and have not stopped or regretted it. Netanyahu’s crime is that even though he had 15 years to reach some kind of agreement with the Palestinians who wanted to live in peace with Israel, like President Mahmoud Abbas, he preferred to make deals with the devil, Hamas. He did this to weaken the Palestinian Authority and prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, not to evacuate settlements or lose his electoral base. Netanyahu is the main criminal responsible for encouraging, financing, and supporting Hamas and favoring it over the Palestinian National Authority.